理想的bolt?(轉貼)

kevin · 2003-11-20, 09:58

理想的bolt?
2003/02/26(09:57)

似乎還沒有最適合sea cliff的bolt。Aisi 303, 304,316 都有問題！
(何中達　來自:163.28.48.69 －中壢)

以下摘自http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/bolts.html

Various people have been wondering about failures of relatively new stainless bolts in sea cliffs. After a quick glance at the Rawl catalog and some quick research, I\'m not sure this surprises me.
...
A few people have suggested that galvanic corrosion between different grades of stainless (e.g. a hanger made from Type 316 and a bolt like the Rawl made from type 303, or its 18/8 washer) might be problematic.
...
303...the high sulphur content which...reduces the grade\'s...and corrosion resistance
...
Alternative grades to 304 should be considered in certain environments and applications, including marine conditions, environments with temperatures above 50-60C and with chlorides present
...
Type 316 is listed as \"standard for marine fittings\"... However, it seems that Type 316 may *also* not be appropriate for use as an anchor bolt in a sea cliff
...
That is, they recommend against using *either* 304 or 316 in a chloride-containing environment under tensile load (like, say, a hanging belay anchor on a popular route on a Thai sea cliff) and particularly in hot (okay, very very hot, but every bit can\'t help, and some of the stainless bolt failures heard of recently _have_ occurred in tropical, salty places) conditions. This type of stress-corrosion cracking could presumably let the shaft of a bolt
snap off without visible surface corrosion on the bolt head, washer or hanger. Ugly, huh?
...
The upshot? It seems to me that *all* currently-available stainless and nonstainless bolts are unsuitable for climbing anchor purposes on many (perhaps only those with porous rock?) sea cliffs.
...
At Acadia National Park, there are permanent toprope anchors made from glued-in 1\" stainless bar stock. It sure seemed like overkill last time I saw it, but now I\'m thinking other areas might want to consider something similar for toprope/belay anchors, unless/until stainless bolts made from appropriate materials become available.

Thor Lancelot Simon tls@rek.tjls.com

照片來源:http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/bolts.html

(很酷的照片喔~有各種bolt以及工具,點小圖可以看大圖)

台灣攀岩資料庫
www.RockClimbing.idv.tw

[ This message was edited by: kevin on 2003-02-27 11:39 ]

kevin · 2003-11-20, 09:58

以下摘自http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/bolts.html

Supplied by the manufacturer: (based on 4000psi concrete)

Bolt Type / Shear Lbs / Pull Out Lbs

Rawl ButtonHead

1/4 x 1.5 2230 2050
5/16 x 1.5 4850 3500
3/8 x 2 Spike 2420 3140

Rawl ZMac / Shear / Pull out
1/4 x 1 / 1500 / 820

Rawl 6-Piece / Shear / Pull out
3/8 x 2.25 / 7875 / 4840
3/8 x 2.25 stainless / 7875 / 4840
3/8 x 3 / 8155 / 5590
3/8 x 3 stainless / 8155 / 5590
3/8 x 3.5 / 8525 / 6150
3/8 x 3.5 stainless / 8525 / 6150
1/2 x 3.75 / 10,690 / 9780
1/2 x 3.75 stainless / 10,690 / 9780

Petzl / Shear / Pull out
Long Life / 2500 k / 2200 k

Fixe
3/8 x 2.75 / 5000 / 6800

Bolt Hangers Etc / Strength / Uses

Metolius Rap Hanger / 5000 lb / smooth radius rap hanger

Fixe Hanger / 40 kn / general use hanger

Fixe Rap Ring / 3400 lb (Stainless Steel) / anchor station lower-off

SMC Rap Ring / 3400 lb (Aluminum) / anchor station lower-off

FISH Anchor Clips / 8000 lb (24,000 breaking) / anchor station lower-off

Ushba Bolt Hanger / 15 kn (Titanium) / lightweight hanger

Note: kn = 224.8 lbs +/-

台灣攀岩資料庫
www.RockClimbing.idv.tw

[ This message was edited by: kevin on 2003-02-27 11:48 ]

kevin · 2003-11-20, 09:58

這裡有許\多和bolt有關的文章----

http://www.safeclimbing.org/info.html

BOLT REPLACEMENT INFORMATION

How to Rebolt
The Rebolting Clinic
Yates Screamer and Zipper information
Updated Warning from Hilti, April 2002,
Comparative Cord Strength Test
The Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
What Heavy Climbers Need to Know
Fall Forces - The Harder you Fall
Mechanical and Adhesive Bolts
Dangerous Bolts
Bolts - Bomber or Time Bombs
Soft Sandstone Bolt Testing in South Africa
Blind Faith: Can We Really Trust Cold Shuts
Bad Bolt Horror Stories - send us your worst story.
The Fish Products web site (Russ Walling) has a good discussion of bolt strengths and placement techniques.
Leeper Hanger Warning
How Safe are Fixed Pins?
Reducing the Visual Impact of Bolt hangers and Other Fixed Gear
NOLS Backcountry Lightning Safety Guide
Note: The Sliding X

[addsig]

kevin · 2003-11-20, 09:58

以下文章轉貼自----！龍洞危險耳片的死亡威脅　6/14\'2003 (六)

基本上我覺得龍洞不適合再使用膨脹式螺栓+耳片（如Petzl Longlife等)。近來有許\多證據發現在海洋環境（marine environment)使用這些bolts會有嚴重的應力腐蝕龜裂（暫譯，stress corrossion cracking, SCC)問題。可以參考本期的climbing雜誌（有談到喀比、開曼），及以下網頁
American Safe Climbing Association
FISH Prodcuts
如果這些bolts的壽命約只有5年（好像是二齒說的？），那麼既使現在全面換新，5年後（或許\我還在爬）我們又面臨同樣的問題。幾個5年後（我大概很老爬不動了），龍洞大概是滿目瘡痍了吧？！

化學錨樁（glue-in anchor）可能是比較好的選擇，目前如德國人、宏祥打的就是此類。
Fixe glue-in bolt
Petzl Collinox
優點：
抗拉力與抗剪力都大於膨脹螺栓；
化學膠包裹住錨樁沒入之部分，可避免腐蝕；
雖然仍有SCC的問題，但以8~10釐米的直徑而言，使用年限應該比厚度僅3釐米的耳片長很多很多
缺點：
若用品質不佳的glue，或未確實照正確程序施工的話，強度會有問題
最理想的glue-in bolt應該鈦合金的，不過價錢很高，值得大家努力！
Ushba Tortuga

Rebolting還有一個問題就是如何處理舊的bolt。理想上當然是拔除。ASCA建議是用岩釘在耳片四周逐步翹出。如果真的拔的出來，那就可以在原來的洞置入化學錨樁。如果bolt斷掉或是原先的洞不宜再使用，可用epoxy、塑鋼土等膠填入洞內，洞口再用當地的砂或小石頭補起來。

當然這些都是很辛苦的事情啦，但是為了攀岩安全與減少環境衝擊，大家加油吧！

補充一點：在較軟的岩質如石灰岩（關子嶺）使用膨脹螺栓也不是很安全的！

何中達

已經翻出來了
http://www.climber.idv.tw/%7Emicrorock/bolts.htm

Steven Chen

http://www.ushba.com/catalog/tortuga.htm

Glue-In Bolt 的售價不知道一支是多少?能不能請拔山進一些來用,雖然貴但至少最上方的固定點應該要使用這種\"安全品\"(不是\"高級品\").
即使一支要賣到NT$2000元,但和小命比起來還是非常的便宜吧 [img]images/forum/smilies/

[/img]

以後我這去處理龍洞的bolt,將會視情況,盡量全部都打上化學管的bolt.

(by Chao)

Petzl的化學樁售價為11塊美金左右，化學管約3塊美金，兩個合起來山友約賣400元上下（隨匯率變動）。

FIXE的化學樁原本一支80元，之前進的已經全部用完，現在要進新的，因為歐元漲到離譜的41元，所以之後進口的售價會提高30％以上。

至於化學管，一般玻璃M10的化學管，售價在新台幣25∼35圓中間。HILTI用槍的雙管藥劑，約480原（台北正源五金的報價），可用約20次，所以單次也是25原左右。

化學樁因為裝置的關係，不需要用力敲打，材料本身比較不會受應力腐蝕的影響。至於Petzl Lonelife，因為敲打處就在受力處附近（連接耳騙與內管的金屬環），很容易鏽蝕。

(by 宏祥)

Ushba的鈦合金「烏龜」（tortuga）在美國大概賣USD15左右。如果拔山進的話，我先捐20支，不過只能打在5.10以內的路線 [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_eek.gif[/img] ，不然我都沒機會用到！

何中達

---------

台灣攀岩資料庫
www.RockClimbing.idv.tw

[ 這篇文章修改由: kevin 在 2003-07-18 23:45 ]

chao · 2003-11-20, 09:58

剛拿到手的Petzl P55 化學bolt

明天去龍洞有機會的話,會將長巷上方打上新的化學top-anchor.
(贊助者)

圖左是化學管bolt,右邊是膨脹bolt

[addsig]

zong · 2003-11-20, 09:58

to 子.凱.宏祥.二齒..大家打bolt辛苦了!!

bolt話題最近很熱門
其實早在11年前的美國climbing雜誌(1992.oct.第134期)第101頁
duane raleigh寫了長達10頁關於bolt的如何施工
...也評論某些bolt不可使用..也推薦某些bolt可使用

...以下bolt他測試過認為不太好
1..externally threaded sleeve bolt(我收集到2只)
2..torque bolt
3..use diamond taper bolt
4..star dryvin bolt
5..drop-in bolt(內迫式.見下址)
6..stud bolt

下列中文網站有詳細測試報告http://www.shf.com.tw(包含內迫式.套管式..化學錨栓..)

另外
關於鈦合金耳片或鈦合金環眼形的壽命有多久
答案是即使在海邊也長達50年
除非是常fall的那顆也許\5-10年換一次(我不清楚!!)
進口鈦有點貴..運費也貴
我問了板橋家泰螺絲店..還有中和百右螺絲店
請他們自製鈦耳片..估價約每個170元(1000個)
130(5000個)
鈦環眼形一個約240元
以上我都有樣品....但沒UIAA測試過!!!!!!!!!!!!
徐貫中

有wall就有climber
有climber就有白粉
有白粉就有路線.....

[ 這篇文章修改由: kevin 在 2003-07-19 22:57 ]

chao · 2003-11-20, 09:58

zong~

climbing雜誌(1992.oct.第134期)第101頁

你有這本嗎?能不能跟你借來copy這篇文章 [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_wink.gif[/img] [addsig]

zong · 2003-11-20, 09:58

沒問題!!!

但你可能會翻譯翻到手軟
那麼..爬岩功\力會大減哦
[img]images/forum/smilies/

[/img] [img]images/forum/smilies/

[/img] [addsig]

cdho · 2003-11-20, 09:58

Quote:

On 2003-07-19 23:04, chao wrote:
zong~

climbing雜誌(1992.oct.第134期)第101頁

你有這本嗎?能不能跟你借來copy這篇文章 [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_wink.gif[/img] [addsig]

這裡就有啦
http://www.safeclimbing.org/danger_bolts.html
http://www.safeclimbing.org/bolt_types.html
http://www.safeclimbing.org/fall_forces.html

還是說不完整呢？

[ 這篇文章修改由: cdho 在 2003-11-20 10:04 ]

[ 這篇文章修改由: chao 在 2003-11-20 10:21 ]

2003-11-20, 09:58	#1
kevin 論壇管理員註冊日期: 2001-11 文章: 1042 部落格文章: 1	理想的bolt?(轉貼) 理想的bolt? 2003/02/26(09:57) 似乎還沒有最適合sea cliff的bolt。Aisi 303, 304,316 都有問題！ (何中達　來自:163.28.48.69 －中壢) 以下摘自http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/bolts.html Various people have been wondering about failures of relatively new stainless bolts in sea cliffs. After a quick glance at the Rawl catalog and some quick research, I\'m not sure this surprises me. ... A few people have suggested that galvanic corrosion between different grades of stainless (e.g. a hanger made from Type 316 and a bolt like the Rawl made from type 303, or its 18/8 washer) might be problematic. ... 303...the high sulphur content which...reduces the grade\'s...and corrosion resistance ... Alternative grades to 304 should be considered in certain environments and applications, including marine conditions, environments with temperatures above 50-60C and with chlorides present ... Type 316 is listed as \"standard for marine fittings\"... However, it seems that Type 316 may also not be appropriate for use as an anchor bolt in a sea cliff ... That is, they recommend against using either 304 or 316 in a chloride-containing environment under tensile load (like, say, a hanging belay anchor on a popular route on a Thai sea cliff) and particularly in hot (okay, very very hot, but every bit can\'t help, and some of the stainless bolt failures heard of recently _have_ occurred in tropical, salty places) conditions. This type of stress-corrosion cracking could presumably let the shaft of a bolt snap off without visible surface corrosion on the bolt head, washer or hanger. Ugly, huh? ... The upshot? It seems to me that all currently-available stainless and nonstainless bolts are unsuitable for climbing anchor purposes on many (perhaps only those with porous rock?) sea cliffs. ... At Acadia National Park, there are permanent toprope anchors made from glued-in 1\" stainless bar stock. It sure seemed like overkill last time I saw it, but now I\'m thinking other areas might want to consider something similar for toprope/belay anchors, unless/until stainless bolts made from appropriate materials become available. Thor Lancelot Simon tls@rek.tjls.com 照片來源:http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/bolts.html (很酷的照片喔~有各種bolt以及工具,點小圖可以看大圖) 台灣攀岩資料庫 www.RockClimbing.idv.tw [ This message was edited by: kevin on 2003-02-27 11:39 ] __________________ 台灣攀岩資料庫

2003-11-20, 09:58	#2
kevin 論壇管理員註冊日期: 2001-11 文章: 1042 部落格文章: 1	理想的bolt?(轉貼) 以下摘自http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/bolts.html Supplied by the manufacturer: (based on 4000psi concrete) Bolt Type / Shear Lbs / Pull Out Lbs Rawl ButtonHead 1/4 x 1.5 2230 2050 5/16 x 1.5 4850 3500 3/8 x 2 Spike 2420 3140 Rawl ZMac / Shear / Pull out 1/4 x 1 / 1500 / 820 Rawl 6-Piece / Shear / Pull out 3/8 x 2.25 / 7875 / 4840 3/8 x 2.25 stainless / 7875 / 4840 3/8 x 3 / 8155 / 5590 3/8 x 3 stainless / 8155 / 5590 3/8 x 3.5 / 8525 / 6150 3/8 x 3.5 stainless / 8525 / 6150 1/2 x 3.75 / 10,690 / 9780 1/2 x 3.75 stainless / 10,690 / 9780 Petzl / Shear / Pull out Long Life / 2500 k / 2200 k Fixe 3/8 x 2.75 / 5000 / 6800 Bolt Hangers Etc / Strength / Uses Metolius Rap Hanger / 5000 lb / smooth radius rap hanger Fixe Hanger / 40 kn / general use hanger Fixe Rap Ring / 3400 lb (Stainless Steel) / anchor station lower-off SMC Rap Ring / 3400 lb (Aluminum) / anchor station lower-off FISH Anchor Clips / 8000 lb (24,000 breaking) / anchor station lower-off Ushba Bolt Hanger / 15 kn (Titanium) / lightweight hanger Note: kn = 224.8 lbs +/- 台灣攀岩資料庫 www.RockClimbing.idv.tw [ This message was edited by: kevin on 2003-02-27 11:48 ] __________________ 台灣攀岩資料庫

2003-11-20, 09:58	#3
kevin 論壇管理員註冊日期: 2001-11 文章: 1042 部落格文章: 1	理想的bolt?(轉貼) 這裡有許\多和bolt有關的文章---- http://www.safeclimbing.org/info.html BOLT REPLACEMENT INFORMATION How to Rebolt The Rebolting Clinic Yates Screamer and Zipper information Updated Warning from Hilti, April 2002, Comparative Cord Strength Test The Devil and the Deep Blue Sea What Heavy Climbers Need to Know Fall Forces - The Harder you Fall Mechanical and Adhesive Bolts Dangerous Bolts Bolts - Bomber or Time Bombs Soft Sandstone Bolt Testing in South Africa Blind Faith: Can We Really Trust Cold Shuts Bad Bolt Horror Stories - send us your worst story. The Fish Products web site (Russ Walling) has a good discussion of bolt strengths and placement techniques. Leeper Hanger Warning How Safe are Fixed Pins? Reducing the Visual Impact of Bolt hangers and Other Fixed Gear NOLS Backcountry Lightning Safety Guide Note: The Sliding X [addsig] __________________ 台灣攀岩資料庫

2003-11-20, 09:58	#4
kevin 論壇管理員註冊日期: 2001-11 文章: 1042 部落格文章: 1	理想的bolt?(轉貼) 以下文章轉貼自----！龍洞危險耳片的死亡威脅　6/14\'2003 (六) 基本上我覺得龍洞不適合再使用膨脹式螺栓+耳片（如Petzl Longlife等)。近來有許\多證據發現在海洋環境（marine environment)使用這些bolts會有嚴重的應力腐蝕龜裂（暫譯，stress corrossion cracking, SCC)問題。可以參考本期的climbing雜誌（有談到喀比、開曼），及以下網頁 American Safe Climbing Association FISH Prodcuts 如果這些bolts的壽命約只有5年（好像是二齒說的？），那麼既使現在全面換新，5年後（或許\我還在爬）我們又面臨同樣的問題。幾個5年後（我大概很老爬不動了），龍洞大概是滿目瘡痍了吧？！化學錨樁（glue-in anchor）可能是比較好的選擇，目前如德國人、宏祥打的就是此類。 Fixe glue-in bolt Petzl Collinox 優點：抗拉力與抗剪力都大於膨脹螺栓；化學膠包裹住錨樁沒入之部分，可避免腐蝕；雖然仍有SCC的問題，但以8~10釐米的直徑而言，使用年限應該比厚度僅3釐米的耳片長很多很多缺點：若用品質不佳的glue，或未確實照正確程序施工的話，強度會有問題最理想的glue-in bolt應該鈦合金的，不過價錢很高，值得大家努力！ Ushba Tortuga Rebolting還有一個問題就是如何處理舊的bolt。理想上當然是拔除。ASCA建議是用岩釘在耳片四周逐步翹出。如果真的拔的出來，那就可以在原來的洞置入化學錨樁。如果bolt斷掉或是原先的洞不宜再使用，可用epoxy、塑鋼土等膠填入洞內，洞口再用當地的砂或小石頭補起來。當然這些都是很辛苦的事情啦，但是為了攀岩安全與減少環境衝擊，大家加油吧！補充一點：在較軟的岩質如石灰岩（關子嶺）使用膨脹螺栓也不是很安全的！何中達已經翻出來了 http://www.climber.idv.tw/%7Emicrorock/bolts.htm Steven Chen http://www.ushba.com/catalog/tortuga.htm Glue-In Bolt 的售價不知道一支是多少?能不能請拔山進一些來用,雖然貴但至少最上方的固定點應該要使用這種\"安全品\"(不是\"高級品\"). 即使一支要賣到NT$2000元,但和小命比起來還是非常的便宜吧 [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img] 以後我這去處理龍洞的bolt,將會視情況,盡量全部都打上化學管的bolt. (by Chao) Petzl的化學樁售價為11塊美金左右，化學管約3塊美金，兩個合起來山友約賣400元上下（隨匯率變動）。 FIXE的化學樁原本一支80元，之前進的已經全部用完，現在要進新的，因為歐元漲到離譜的41元，所以之後進口的售價會提高30％以上。至於化學管，一般玻璃M10的化學管，售價在新台幣25∼35圓中間。HILTI用槍的雙管藥劑，約480原（台北正源五金的報價），可用約20次，所以單次也是25原左右。化學樁因為裝置的關係，不需要用力敲打，材料本身比較不會受應力腐蝕的影響。至於Petzl Lonelife，因為敲打處就在受力處附近（連接耳騙與內管的金屬環），很容易鏽蝕。 (by 宏祥) Ushba的鈦合金「烏龜」（tortuga）在美國大概賣USD15左右。如果拔山進的話，我先捐20支，不過只能打在5.10以內的路線 [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_eek.gif[/img] ，不然我都沒機會用到！何中達 --------- 台灣攀岩資料庫 www.RockClimbing.idv.tw [ 這篇文章修改由: kevin 在 2003-07-18 23:45 ] __________________ 台灣攀岩資料庫

2003-11-20, 09:58	#5
chao 攀岩癌症患者註冊日期: 2000-07 文章: 619	理想的bolt?(轉貼) 剛拿到手的Petzl P55 化學bolt 明天去龍洞有機會的話,會將長巷上方打上新的化學top-anchor. (贊助者) 圖左是化學管bolt,右邊是膨脹bolt [addsig] __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------- When I have a little time, I climb; and if any is left, I eat and sleep. 「攀岩星球」上只住著兩種人，一種是在攀岩的人；另一種是爬累了正在休息的人。

2003-11-20, 09:58	#6
zong 重度攀岩者註冊日期: 2002-12 文章: 237	理想的bolt?(轉貼) to 子.凱.宏祥.二齒..大家打bolt辛苦了!! bolt話題最近很熱門其實早在11年前的美國climbing雜誌(1992.oct.第134期)第101頁 duane raleigh寫了長達10頁關於bolt的如何施工 ...也評論某些bolt不可使用..也推薦某些bolt可使用 ...以下bolt他測試過認為不太好 1..externally threaded sleeve bolt(我收集到2只) 2..torque bolt 3..use diamond taper bolt 4..star dryvin bolt 5..drop-in bolt(內迫式.見下址) 6..stud bolt 下列中文網站有詳細測試報告http://www.shf.com.tw(包含內迫式.套管式..化學錨栓..) 另外關於鈦合金耳片或鈦合金環眼形的壽命有多久答案是即使在海邊也長達50年除非是常fall的那顆也許\5-10年換一次(我不清楚!!) 進口鈦有點貴..運費也貴我問了板橋家泰螺絲店..還有中和百右螺絲店請他們自製鈦耳片..估價約每個170元(1000個) 130(5000個) 鈦環眼形一個約240元以上我都有樣品....但沒UIAA測試過!!!!!!!!!!!! 徐貫中有wall就有climber 有climber就有白粉有白粉就有路線..... [ 這篇文章修改由: kevin 在 2003-07-19 22:57 ] __________________ 有wall就有climber 有climber就有白粉有白粉就有路線..... 眼中有路線.心中無難度!!

2003-11-20, 09:58	#7
chao 攀岩癌症患者註冊日期: 2000-07 文章: 619	理想的bolt?(轉貼) zong~ climbing雜誌(1992.oct.第134期)第101頁你有這本嗎?能不能跟你借來copy這篇文章 [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_wink.gif[/img] [addsig] __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------- When I have a little time, I climb; and if any is left, I eat and sleep. 「攀岩星球」上只住著兩種人，一種是在攀岩的人；另一種是爬累了正在休息的人。

2003-11-20, 09:58	#8
zong 重度攀岩者註冊日期: 2002-12 文章: 237	理想的bolt?(轉貼) 沒問題!!! 但你可能會翻譯翻到手軟那麼..爬岩功\力會大減哦 [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img] [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img] [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img] [addsig] __________________ 有wall就有climber 有climber就有白粉有白粉就有路線..... 眼中有路線.心中無難度!!