To Bolt or Not To Be?

[Ta-Chi]

「牛奶」的一席話，勾起很多的回憶。也趁著機會，把爭議已久的問題搬上檯面 ﹣﹣打還是不打（To Bolt or Not To Be）﹖

莎翁筆下的名言（To be or not to be）一旦透過哈姆雷特的口說出，事實上也已暗示了答案 ﹣﹣沒有兩全其美的選擇。同樣的，「打還是不打」這個問題本身也許\就是答案﹣﹣沒有絕對的對與錯。誠如「牛奶」所言（謝謝 [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_smile.gif[/img] )，打與不打之間是見仁見智的好與壞。在打與不打這兩種選擇之間，我自己的回憶也充滿了很多的「對」，很多的「錯」：

（一）「Surprise」：
「打」﹣﹣雖然 Surprise 可能是龍洞最安全、最經典的傳統路線，很多新人不敢爬。一來因為它的氣勢逼人，二來它的裂隙（雖然看起來很好放）要求純熟的技巧，不然很危險。不打，這條「校門口第一條」的路線可能就「浪費」了。打了以後，新人可以藉此「壯膽」，更進而求下一階段的突破。所以，打！

「不打」：理由很多，不須綴述。我只能濃縮的說：如果後悔可以改變事實的話，打這條路線讓我後悔一輩子。

（二）「倒走天梯」：
（先講一個「老」祕密。打這條路線的時候，本想取名「milk-y boy」﹣「好小子」。因為是「牛奶」用傳統攀登開出來的路線，中文名也可連結到那時大家都熟悉的漫畫）。

「打」：理由很簡單，這條路線的裂隙淺、石塊較小較浮，安全的考量和這條路線本身的吸引力反而造成了這條路線潛伏的危險性。潛伏的危險給了我「打」的正確性。打！

「不打」：「牛奶」能，別人也能！更何況，這是「牛奶」開出來的路線，別人沒有權力打。

（三）「落大石」：
「打」：理由更簡單，不打不能爬。打！
「不打」：打這條路線須要先打和路線無關、但可供下降的固定點。這樣打，值得嗎﹖

這些回憶代表了我在龍洞打路線時的心路歷程。提供這些也無非是強調「打與不打」事實上是一種選擇﹣﹣我們做多了選擇題，常以為選擇就是答案；但，選擇不是答案。回憶這些心路歷程，無非是希望能替討論「選擇」而非討論「答案」的討論方式起個頭：選「打」或「不打」以及理由﹖甚者，除了「打與不打」，我們有第三、第四種選擇﹖

希望新的攀岩一代能多發表意見。未來臺灣的攀岩環境是您們的。而且，是誰說的：「長江後浪推前浪，前浪死在沙灘上」﹖斗轉星移，龍洞，當然也潮來潮去。可是，又是誰說的：「老兵不死」，我們這些「前浪」也還沒死在沙灘上。相反的，我們在等待，等待向您們學習。不只學您們如何爬 5.12，5.13，5.14，也等著學您們更寬闊的視野和更大的包容心胸。

我們不是討論了很多「具不具名」、「捅不捅刀」、「誤不誤判」、「攀岩網站民主和限制」等等的問題嗎﹖如果這些看起來相互矛盾的選項有一個「最大公約數」﹣﹣一個基礎標準答案，可能就是視野和心胸了。

期許\著「打與不打」的討論能由此開始。

[chao]

這有一篇先前相關的討論,可以參考看看~[img]images/forum/smilies/icon_smile.gif[/img]

打還是不打？

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When I have a little time, I climb;
and if any is left, I eat and sleep.

「攀岩星球」上只住著兩種人，一種是在攀岩的人；
另一種是爬累了正在休息的人。


[ 這篇文章修改由: kevin 在 2003-10-18 01:57 ]

[imported_Anonymous]

為何我們的攀岩環境總是如此的奇怪??都是在爭議,討論及激辯,到最後決裂,大家都沒搞頭,一堆人\"LDS\"---啦低塞---真是不好玩!!

[kevin]

並請大家盡量回覆與主題相關的討論議題,謝謝! [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_smile.gif[/img]

---------

台灣攀岩資料庫
www.Climbing.org




[ 這篇文章修改由: kevin 在 2003-10-15 15:14 ]

[imported_Anonymous]

只要有人爬,就有需要打bolt!!

[imported_Anonymous]

以下是希臘一個島嶼Kalymnos打bolt的共識，提供大家參考討論。
IC

On Kalymnos new routes can be put up either from the bottom up or from the top down, by abseil. In addition to the lines suitable for single pitch routes there is ample scope for lots of multipitch routes of up to 5 pitches. Our aim is for the routes here to be as safe as possible so that climbers can concentrate on the technical difficulty of the routes without worrying about risks to life and limb. While there can be no objection to climbers climbing on the island with traditional protection (nuts and friends, etc), it is the policy of the local authorities that all new routes must be protected with bolts for the safety of those making repeated ascents. Traditionally protected routes are not accepted on Kalymnos.
Particularly because of the proximity of the sea you should use stainless steel bolts and hangers, the former being at least 10mm in diameter and either express type bolts, gouzon or glued in with epoxy resin.
Always put the first bolt about 2.8m off the ground, the second about 1.2m further up and the third 2 metres above the second. This will help avoid climbers hiting the deck.
Each belay point should be equipped with two bolts joined by a chain carrying an inox karabiner for lowering off. As long as stocks hold out, chains and stainless steel karabiners can be obtained free of charge from the information office of DAOK on the road between Masouri and Emporios, beneath Odyssey.
To keep up these high standards of protection climbers wanting to put up new routes are advised first to climb some of the model routes on crags such as Arche and Odyssey to get a clearer picture of what is intended. New routes should be equipped to the same standard, following the guidelines given below, thereby avoiding dangerous run-outs:

* Never place bolts on stalactites.
* Never drill either stalactites or the rock simply to place a sling. Slings as permanent protection should not be placed even if there are good natural holes. Instead of these bolts should be used.
* No chipping holds, and no placing of artificial holds.
* Clear your route of loose rock and of any vegetation that gets in the way of climbing. The judicial removal of ultra-sharp edges with a hammer is acceptable.
* If your route is to be over 30m you should arrange an extra belay point to enable climbers to lower off using a single 60m rope.
* If par example, the first 20m of a route is 6b and the last 15m is 7c, fix a belay point after 20m so that the route can be enjoyed by more climbers and not just by the guys in the 7c league.
* Those putting up new routes should discretely write the name of the route in Latin characters at its base. This should be in blue paint, not in felt pen, which disappears so soon.
* Most of the route names derive from Greek mythology and Greek history, following the respectful lead set by the first Italian climbers on the island. For instance, at the Poets crag all the names are those of ancient Greek poets. We think that this tradition should be continued (so dust off that copy of Greek myths and bring it along with the drill !).
* No further routes should be put up in the Grande Grotta partly because there are already so many and partly so as to protect this marvellous work of nature with its wonderful stalactites.
* It would also be better if no more routes were put up on Odyssey, especially on the right side of the crag where the routes are already dense. When there is so much rock elsewhere on the island with no bolts in sight there is no reason to squeeze new routes into already crowded crags. Be adventurous and head off for the as yet untouched crags.
* Finally you should contact us before and after putting up these new routes.

[imported_Anonymous]

kalymnos的網站
IC

http://www.kalymnos-isl.gr/webweaver...eng/guide.html

[ 這篇文章修改由: kevin 在 2003-10-18 01:58 ]

[Ta-Chi]

謝謝 IC 提供的資訊。他山之石，可以攻錯。可是在考慮攻錯之前，有二個疑問，希望同好，尤其是新一代的同好，能與解惑：

（一）Kalymnos 的「石」看起來是石灰岩（dolomite，limestone）。 石灰岩不利於傳統攀登。所以安全因素成了 bolting 的很重要考量。龍洞不同。傳統攀登在龍洞原本是主流（早期的「老」 RCC，中期的何中達、林亮光，後期的杜杜、牛奶、阿孫、陳顯榮等），而且龍洞的岩質不會排除傳統攀登的可能性。安全的因素在龍洞多歸於技術層面而非岩質本身。那，在下「只要有人爬,就有需要打bolt!」這個結論之前，有沒有別的因素須要再想想﹖

（二）Kalymnos 的種種看起來比較像「規定」，不太像「共識」。二者的不同點在於前者須要有一個權力機構來維持，後者不用。大夥希望有一個這樣的機構來告訴我們龍洞要如何來爬、來開發嗎﹖
[img]images/forum/smilies/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[cdho]

澳洲維多利亞攀登俱樂部（VCC）的bolting policy可以參考一下：
http://www.vicclimb.org.au/media/docs/BoltPolicy.doc

Quote:

On 2003-10-16 22:28, Ta-Chi wrote: 傳統攀登在龍洞原本是主流（早期的「老」 RCC，中期的何中達、林亮光，後期的杜杜、牛奶、阿孫、陳顯榮等

林亮光和我（cdho=何中達）等人很不幸的應該算是最早期吧（約民國68年）

[Ta-Chi]

中達提供的資料很值得參考。不知那位可以稍為翻譯一下，尤其是有關「首登者」的權利義務、bolting as a last resort、安全考量、固定點等部分。澳洲的維多利亞州我去過。那兒的岩質大多很像龍洞，沙岩被熱高壓擠在一起的那一種。

中達，對不起囉。年紀大了，記憶也模糊了。順便補充一下：早期活躍在龍洞的傳統攀登者「老 RCC」指的是高銘和等人，中期的則有陳睦彥等 RCC 以及「臺大幫」，後期的人現在還在攀岩界活動的另有王世鼎（蛋頭）等前輩。我開始打 bolt 大約是在民國 77，78年，一直持續到民國 85年。這段時間也大約是運動攀登和比賽在全球開始風行的時候。

[nin]

大濟希望這篇文章翻成中文
應該有它的價值吧
好吧
我想試試
我會把它翻成通順的中文的
耶 [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img]
看看別人如何看待這議題的
反正最近沒看到喜歡的文章


[img]images/forum/smilies/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_eek.gif[/img] [addsig]

[pumpkin_man]

嗯....我很忙....可是....
我可以等nin把文章翻出來看...

等你唷~~~ [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img] [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img] [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img]

[nin]

謝謝

[chao]

澳洲維多利亞攀登俱樂部（VCC）的bolting policy可以參考一下：
http://www.vicclimb.org.au/media/docs/BoltPolicy.doc

to nin~

不知道你開始翻這篇文章了沒有?因為shin已經開始在翻譯了,如果可以的話把人力分散在不同的地方,會更有效益 [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img]

VCC天然岩場打路線政策（澳洲）


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When I have a little time, I climb;
and if any is left, I eat and sleep.

「攀岩星球」上只住著兩種人，一種是在攀岩的人；
另一種是爬累了正在休息的人。


[ 這篇文章修改由: kevin 在 2003-10-18 01:59 ]

[nin]

好啊
無所謂
[addsig]