台灣龍洞攀岩Guide Book 一般意見記錄區

anmin · 2012-04-15, 15:23

隨便翻看之後, 把目前我看到一些非「路線名稱」與「首攀者」錯誤, 應二齒要求, 另外記錄在這裡...

下列項目前幾天已經先有寄給 Matt 看過

- [全書各處] 攀登區域名稱 "校門口" "門簷" 的英文翻譯 "apprentice" 應為 "appentice". "apprentice" 是指 "徒弟" 的意思.
[all over the book] the area name "school gate - appentice" is incorrectly spelled as "apprentice".
the name is referring to an architectural structure above a gate (commonly seen in eastern Asian style),
instead of the relationship between Skywalker to Yoda in Starwars movies.

- [134頁] 路線279 "威爾森懸岩" 的英文和中文描述難度不一樣. 從書後的兩個附錄查看, 是用英文描述的難度.
[pp134] the descriptions of route 279, "Wilson overhang" has different
difficulty grading in English text and in Chinese text. In appendix (index by name and index by grade), it uses the grade in English description.

- [136頁] 路線圖中路線286的起攀點印成285.
[pp136] the topo, the start of climb of route 286 is printed as 285.

- [190頁] 路線圖中路線372的完攀點印成375.
[pp190] the topo, route 372 at end of climb route number printed as 375.

- [10頁] "裝備" 欄的下列中英對照意思差很大...
英文: 須自行攜帶飲水, 岩場裡不提供飲水.
中文: ...(略)
pp10, section "Gear", English: Bring drinking waters as there is none available at the crag;
Chinese translated back to English: climbing routes are not long, no need to carry waters)

===>
底下不是錯誤, 是我個人小小的意見....

[某些路線我現場看過其他人或我自己爬過, 未收錄在此書內]
有些路線, 以我幾年前剛學會傳統能爬不到5.9的爛咖, 呆呆拿著裝備到處亂爬, 也不知道路線多難或有沒有人爬過, 都爬上去了(嚇死人了), 我很難想像以前傳統攀登的黃金時代會沒有人爬過.
[Some routes I had seen others or I myself climbed before but not listed in the guide book]
I do not believe that these easy and obvious (but scary) routes had never being climbed before in the "good old trad days" decades ago. ....some routes I was just clueless and grabbed my gears and climbed, without knowing the grades or if they were climbed before or not, when I was a 5.9- trad climber.

大禮堂
Grand Auditorium

- [路線318] 自由裂隙 (延伸)...
Google "傅抱仁" (Paul Foster), 可找到一篇幾十年前大濟和他一起爬自由裂隙登頂大禮堂的報導. 去年(2011)我爬(隨攀)過自由裂隙並繼續往上爬, 在樹叢之上的白色岩壁上發現兩個全新的化學管bolt (應該是章芳源醫師打的).
[route 318] freedom crack (extension)...
To search "傅抱仁" (Paul Foster) on Google, there is a story about Da-chi Wang had climbed top out of grand auditorium via route "freedom crack" with him decades ago.
last year (2011) I climbed (following) freedom crack and above and found 2 brand new glue-in bolts as anchor (should be installed by Dr. Zhang) on the white colored wall just above the bushes.

- [路線314和315之間 (路線圖上沒照到的區域), 登頂]
我現場看過柯煥祥(又稱 "警察阿郎", "壞人阿郎", 為"164黃金"等等路線的首攀) 和陳睿(教我攀岩的師父)組繩隊傳統爬過登頂.
前兩個繩距在153,155頁路線圖之間, 沒照到, 第3繩距爬路線315,316固定點上方的煙囪.
這邊有一篇蛋頭前輩(王世鼎)的網路資料, http://rocknwall.com/tw/m/rock/amend/m/index.html 在"Y2K大禮堂快樂"一欄, 但是裡面連結都斷掉了
(附註: 有兩位有名的資深攀岩家都叫"阿郎", 為了區分, 柯煥祥稱為"警察阿郎"或"壞人阿郎"; 另外這位"阿郎"游健郎稱為"好人阿郎"或"泡咖啡郎"或"獨木舟郎", 他也是本書中路線57"好人阿郎"等路線的首攀)
[route between 314 and 315 (not even covered by any photo in the guide book) and top out]
I saw Huan-Shiang Ke (aka "A-lang the police" or "A-lang the bad guy", who did the trad FA on "route 164 Gold", etc) and Raymond Chen (my rock climbing master) as a team did this all trad and top out.
Pitch 1 and 2 are off the topos (pp153 and 155) in the guide book, and pitch 3 up the chimney above anchor of routes 315 and 316.
The info was in Danto's (Jeff Wang) website http://rocknwall.com/tw/m/rock/amend/m/index.html, see "Y2K大禮堂快樂", but the links were broken.
(PS. We have 2 very famous senior climbers called "A-lang". To tell the 2 famous "A-lang", we usually call Huan-Shiang Ke as "A-lang the police" or "A-lang the bad guy"; we call the other "A-lang", Jian-Lang You, as "A-lang the good guy" or "A-lang the coffee maker" or "A-lang the kayaker", who is the FA of route 57 "good guy A-lang", etc.)

- [路線323和324之間] 明顯的內角, 爬到大天花板, 然後向右橫渡到一個岩階. (我傳統先鋒on-sight爬過)
[route between 323 and 324] the obvious dihedral, to a big roof, traverse right to a ledge. (I had climbed free trad lead on-sight)

- [路線325和328之間] 在龍路的左邊破碎的白色牆面, 爬到和龍路第一繩距頂一樣高. (我傳統先鋒on-sight爬過)
[route between 325 and 328] the broken white face left to "via de Drago",
to the same level as pitch 1 of "via del Drago") (I had climbed free trad lead on-sight)

前兩條路線應該都還可以繼續爬龍路左邊的大內角
the above 2 routes should be able to continue the huge dihedral on the left of "via del Drago".

音樂廳 - 演奏台
Music Hall - Recital Hall

- [路線396和397之間] 沿明顯裂隙上攀, 翻過小懸岩, 接上路線396.
牛奶曾在此路線架top rope給學生爬, 他說這條路線可以傳統爬.
[route between 396 and 397] up the obvious crack, and crank a one-step overhung, then meets route 396.
Milk set up top rope for students and he said this route is typically done in trad.

- [路線401的左邊約兩三米處] 簡單地形可傳統上攀, 牛奶常常從這條路線solo上包廂, 可方便的前往 "天空之城" 起攀點.
[2~3 meters left to route 401] easy terrain for trad climbing. Milk usually solo here to get access to "music hall - balcony", the starts of climbs on the "sky wall".

- 另外, 個人有些小小的疑惑, 像後門地下二樓等等區域, 有些後來被bolt打掉的簡單路線, 例如"內外夾攻"(本書名: "就是5.13")等等, 很難想像以前從來沒有人傳統爬上去過...

anmin · 2012-04-16, 21:04

[路線367] f---ing fall, 也有許多人稱它為 "79決賽". 聽說是 "當年中正盃全國攀岩錦標賽的決賽路線, 當年比賽由牛奶(劉乃勳)前輩爬上".

但翻查本站那幾年的 "大事年表" 網頁,
77年, http://www.climbing.org/showthread.php?t=1827
> 11/20 中正杯全國攀岩賽（龍洞）（預賽：佈告欄/決賽：音樂廳）（男子組前四名：*劉乃勳*、陳仁祥、林坤輝、張益峰/ 女子組前三名：許淑媚、陳寶蓮、傅竹蘭、楊思碧）

79年, http://www.climbing.org/showthread.php?t=1829
> 9/27-29 *第九屆* 中正杯（台港邀請賽）（龍洞）（男子組前三名：伍世維(香港)、陳家麟、曾順文(香港)/女子組前三名：許淑媚、洪維勵、廖傑(香港)/初學組前三名：呂龍平、許特彰、吳岡樵）（相關資訊：剪報-1、剪報-2）

感覺江湖中的傳說和大事年表的年份有點兜不太起來, 而書中路線描述是寫 "第4屆"....

另外, 佈告欄的 [路線427] 發想, 也聽說許多人稱它為 "七十七", 是否是當年 "77年....11/20 中正杯全國攀岩賽（龍洞）預賽：佈告欄..." 的這一條? (所以才叫 "七十七"...)

anmin · 2012-05-12, 18:41

> [路線367] f---ing fall, 也有許多人稱它為 "79決賽". 聽說是 "當年中正盃全國攀岩錦標賽的決賽路線, 當年比賽由牛奶(劉乃勳)前輩爬上".
<

(以下的年份數字是指 "民國")
曾經分別和牛奶及大濟兩位前輩閒聊過, 因為他們在龍洞比過很多次, 記憶都搞混了, 再加上坊間流傳一些不太精確的攀岩歷史記載, 他們也都不太肯定事情實際發生的年份.

大濟記得的應該是79年決賽沒錯, 這條路線是第四次在龍洞舉辦的比賽決賽路線, 前三次分別是小禮堂, 校門口 surprise, 佈告欄非想右邊 (也就是 "七十七", 或本書稱 "發想"), 在79年之前大濟就出國留學讀學位了. 牛奶則說這條路線不是佈告欄那屆, 是比佈告欄那屆更晚. 兩位前輩一致的說法是, 當時開發路線時大濟並沒有一次成功無墜落的完攀, 首攀應該是牛奶前輩.

基於傳統上對首攀的尊重, 身為首攀的牛奶很討厭使用 "f---ing" 這個字眼稱呼這條路線, 他是稱之為 "79決賽".

anmin · 2012-07-03, 20:21

> 基於傳統上對首攀的尊重, 身為首攀的牛奶很討厭使用 "f---ing" 這個字眼稱呼這條路線, 他是稱之為 "79決賽".

補充說明, 前兩天7月1日和牛奶在音樂廳閒聊,
牛奶說他後來記得應該是 "78決賽".

anmin · 2012-07-03, 20:57

親眼見過幾次有人在這腿腳受傷, 前幾個月又看到有人受傷, 再三考慮很久, 還是決定貼上這篇建議..

[路線427] "發想", 215頁路線圖標示翻過內角天花板難關之後接上路線426. 由於bolt安裝位置的關係, 採取運動方式先鋒的攀登者在翻過難關之後如果沒扣到快扣墜落的話, 再加上反應不及的確保者, 攀登者必然會撞擊下方的岩階而受傷 (通常是腳踝嚴重扭傷). 建議比較沒有決心的先鋒攀登者在翻難關之前扣上路線428天花板上的bolt, 從左邊翻出天花板難關之後接上路線428, 或是爬路線428左邊的內角.

[route 427] "plausible", on the p.215 topo this route joins route 426 after the dihedral roof crux. Because of bolt positions, a sport climbing leader, in addition to a less responsive belayer, WILL hit the ledge below (and typically results in serious ankle injury) if (s)he falls just before clipping above the crux. It is recommended for sport leaders with less commitment to clip the bolt just above the roof on route 428, and to climb out the roof from the left, and then join route 428 or climb the dihedral left to route 428.

2012-04-15, 15:23	#1
anmin 重度攀言者註冊日期: 2003-05 住址: 太陽數過來第三顆石頭文章: 190	台灣龍洞攀岩Guide Book 一般意見記錄區隨便翻看之後, 把目前我看到一些非「路線名稱」與「首攀者」錯誤, 應二齒要求, 另外記錄在這裡... 下列項目前幾天已經先有寄給 Matt 看過 - [全書各處] 攀登區域名稱 "校門口" "門簷" 的英文翻譯 "apprentice" 應為 "appentice". "apprentice" 是指 "徒弟" 的意思. [all over the book] the area name "school gate - appentice" is incorrectly spelled as "apprentice". the name is referring to an architectural structure above a gate (commonly seen in eastern Asian style), instead of the relationship between Skywalker to Yoda in Starwars movies. - [134頁] 路線279 "威爾森懸岩" 的英文和中文描述難度不一樣. 從書後的兩個附錄查看, 是用英文描述的難度. [pp134] the descriptions of route 279, "Wilson overhang" has different difficulty grading in English text and in Chinese text. In appendix (index by name and index by grade), it uses the grade in English description. - [136頁] 路線圖中路線286的起攀點印成285. [pp136] the topo, the start of climb of route 286 is printed as 285. - [190頁] 路線圖中路線372的完攀點印成375. [pp190] the topo, route 372 at end of climb route number printed as 375. - [10頁] "裝備" 欄的下列中英對照意思差很大... 英文: 須自行攜帶飲水, 岩場裡不提供飲水. 中文: ...(略) pp10, section "Gear", English: Bring drinking waters as there is none available at the crag; Chinese translated back to English: climbing routes are not long, no need to carry waters) ===> 底下不是錯誤, 是我個人小小的意見.... [某些路線我現場看過其他人或我自己爬過, 未收錄在此書內] 有些路線, 以我幾年前剛學會傳統能爬不到5.9的爛咖, 呆呆拿著裝備到處亂爬, 也不知道路線多難或有沒有人爬過, 都爬上去了(嚇死人了), 我很難想像以前傳統攀登的黃金時代會沒有人爬過. [Some routes I had seen others or I myself climbed before but not listed in the guide book] I do not believe that these easy and obvious (but scary) routes had never being climbed before in the "good old trad days" decades ago. ....some routes I was just clueless and grabbed my gears and climbed, without knowing the grades or if they were climbed before or not, when I was a 5.9- trad climber. 大禮堂 Grand Auditorium - [路線318] 自由裂隙 (延伸)... Google "傅抱仁" (Paul Foster), 可找到一篇幾十年前大濟和他一起爬自由裂隙登頂大禮堂的報導. 去年(2011)我爬(隨攀)過自由裂隙並繼續往上爬, 在樹叢之上的白色岩壁上發現兩個全新的化學管bolt (應該是章芳源醫師打的). [route 318] freedom crack (extension)... To search "傅抱仁" (Paul Foster) on Google, there is a story about Da-chi Wang had climbed top out of grand auditorium via route "freedom crack" with him decades ago. last year (2011) I climbed (following) freedom crack and above and found 2 brand new glue-in bolts as anchor (should be installed by Dr. Zhang) on the white colored wall just above the bushes. - [路線314和315之間 (路線圖上沒照到的區域), 登頂] 我現場看過柯煥祥(又稱 "警察阿郎", "壞人阿郎", 為"164黃金"等等路線的首攀) 和陳睿(教我攀岩的師父)組繩隊傳統爬過登頂. 前兩個繩距在153,155頁路線圖之間, 沒照到, 第3繩距爬路線315,316固定點上方的煙囪. 這邊有一篇蛋頭前輩(王世鼎)的網路資料, http://rocknwall.com/tw/m/rock/amend/m/index.html 在"Y2K大禮堂快樂"一欄, 但是裡面連結都斷掉了 (附註: 有兩位有名的資深攀岩家都叫"阿郎", 為了區分, 柯煥祥稱為"警察阿郎"或"壞人阿郎"; 另外這位"阿郎"游健郎稱為"好人阿郎"或"泡咖啡郎"或"獨木舟郎", 他也是本書中路線57"好人阿郎"等路線的首攀) [route between 314 and 315 (not even covered by any photo in the guide book) and top out] I saw Huan-Shiang Ke (aka "A-lang the police" or "A-lang the bad guy", who did the trad FA on "route 164 Gold", etc) and Raymond Chen (my rock climbing master) as a team did this all trad and top out. Pitch 1 and 2 are off the topos (pp153 and 155) in the guide book, and pitch 3 up the chimney above anchor of routes 315 and 316. The info was in Danto's (Jeff Wang) website http://rocknwall.com/tw/m/rock/amend/m/index.html, see "Y2K大禮堂快樂", but the links were broken. (PS. We have 2 very famous senior climbers called "A-lang". To tell the 2 famous "A-lang", we usually call Huan-Shiang Ke as "A-lang the police" or "A-lang the bad guy"; we call the other "A-lang", Jian-Lang You, as "A-lang the good guy" or "A-lang the coffee maker" or "A-lang the kayaker", who is the FA of route 57 "good guy A-lang", etc.) - [路線323和324之間] 明顯的內角, 爬到大天花板, 然後向右橫渡到一個岩階. (我傳統先鋒on-sight爬過) [route between 323 and 324] the obvious dihedral, to a big roof, traverse right to a ledge. (I had climbed free trad lead on-sight) - [路線325和328之間] 在龍路的左邊破碎的白色牆面, 爬到和龍路第一繩距頂一樣高. (我傳統先鋒on-sight爬過) [route between 325 and 328] the broken white face left to "via de Drago", to the same level as pitch 1 of "via del Drago") (I had climbed free trad lead on-sight) 前兩條路線應該都還可以繼續爬龍路左邊的大內角 the above 2 routes should be able to continue the huge dihedral on the left of "via del Drago". 音樂廳 - 演奏台 Music Hall - Recital Hall - [路線396和397之間] 沿明顯裂隙上攀, 翻過小懸岩, 接上路線396. 牛奶曾在此路線架top rope給學生爬, 他說這條路線可以傳統爬. [route between 396 and 397] up the obvious crack, and crank a one-step overhung, then meets route 396. Milk set up top rope for students and he said this route is typically done in trad. - [路線401的左邊約兩三米處] 簡單地形可傳統上攀, 牛奶常常從這條路線solo上包廂, 可方便的前往 "天空之城" 起攀點. [2~3 meters left to route 401] easy terrain for trad climbing. Milk usually solo here to get access to "music hall - balcony", the starts of climbs on the "sky wall". - 另外, 個人有些小小的疑惑, 像後門地下二樓等等區域, 有些後來被bolt打掉的簡單路線, 例如"內外夾攻"(本書名: "就是5.13")等等, 很難想像以前從來沒有人傳統爬上去過... 此文章於 2012-07-03 20:17 被 anmin 編輯. 原因: 更改標題

2012-04-16, 21:04	#2
anmin 重度攀言者註冊日期: 2003-05 住址: 太陽數過來第三顆石頭文章: 190	[路線367] f---ing fall, 也有許多人稱它為 "79決賽". 聽說是 "當年中正盃全國攀岩錦標賽的決賽路線, 當年比賽由牛奶(劉乃勳)前輩爬上". 但翻查本站那幾年的 "大事年表" 網頁, 77年, http://www.climbing.org/showthread.php?t=1827 > 11/20 中正杯全國攀岩賽（龍洞）（預賽：佈告欄/決賽：音樂廳）（男子組前四名：*劉乃勳、陳仁祥、林坤輝、張益峰/ 女子組前三名：許淑媚、陳寶蓮、傅竹蘭、楊思碧） 79年, http://www.climbing.org/showthread.php?t=1829 > 9/27-29 第九屆* 中正杯（台港邀請賽）（龍洞）（男子組前三名：伍世維(香港)、陳家麟、曾順文(香港)/女子組前三名：許淑媚、洪維勵、廖傑(香港)/初學組前三名：呂龍平、許特彰、吳岡樵）（相關資訊：剪報-1、剪報-2）感覺江湖中的傳說和大事年表的年份有點兜不太起來, 而書中路線描述是寫 "第4屆".... 另外, 佈告欄的 [路線427] 發想, 也聽說許多人稱它為 "七十七", 是否是當年 "77年....11/20 中正杯全國攀岩賽（龍洞）預賽：佈告欄..." 的這一條? (所以才叫 "七十七"...) 此文章於 2012-04-19 20:06 被 anmin 編輯. 原因: 資料補充

2012-05-12, 18:41	#3
anmin 重度攀言者註冊日期: 2003-05 住址: 太陽數過來第三顆石頭文章: 190	> [路線367] f---ing fall, 也有許多人稱它為 "79決賽". 聽說是 "當年中正盃全國攀岩錦標賽的決賽路線, 當年比賽由牛奶(劉乃勳)前輩爬上". < (以下的年份數字是指 "民國") 曾經分別和牛奶及大濟兩位前輩閒聊過, 因為他們在龍洞比過很多次, 記憶都搞混了, 再加上坊間流傳一些不太精確的攀岩歷史記載, 他們也都不太肯定事情實際發生的年份. 大濟記得的應該是79年決賽沒錯, 這條路線是第四次在龍洞舉辦的比賽決賽路線, 前三次分別是小禮堂, 校門口 surprise, 佈告欄非想右邊 (也就是 "七十七", 或本書稱 "發想"), 在79年之前大濟就出國留學讀學位了. 牛奶則說這條路線不是佈告欄那屆, 是比佈告欄那屆更晚. 兩位前輩一致的說法是, 當時開發路線時大濟並沒有一次成功無墜落的完攀, 首攀應該是牛奶前輩. 基於傳統上對首攀的尊重, 身為首攀的牛奶很討厭使用 "f---ing" 這個字眼稱呼這條路線, 他是稱之為 "79決賽". 此文章於 2012-05-14 14:43 被 anmin 編輯. 原因: 資料修正, 刪去不確定的傳言

2012-07-03, 20:21	#4
anmin 重度攀言者註冊日期: 2003-05 住址: 太陽數過來第三顆石頭文章: 190	> 基於傳統上對首攀的尊重, 身為首攀的牛奶很討厭使用 "f---ing" 這個字眼稱呼這條路線, 他是稱之為 "79決賽". 補充說明, 前兩天7月1日和牛奶在音樂廳閒聊, 牛奶說他後來記得應該是 "78決賽".

2012-07-03, 20:57	#5
anmin 重度攀言者註冊日期: 2003-05 住址: 太陽數過來第三顆石頭文章: 190	親眼見過幾次有人在這腿腳受傷, 前幾個月又看到有人受傷, 再三考慮很久, 還是決定貼上這篇建議.. [路線427] "發想", 215頁路線圖標示翻過內角天花板難關之後接上路線426. 由於bolt安裝位置的關係, 採取運動方式先鋒的攀登者在翻過難關之後如果沒扣到快扣墜落的話, 再加上反應不及的確保者, 攀登者必然會撞擊下方的岩階而受傷 (通常是腳踝嚴重扭傷). 建議比較沒有決心的先鋒攀登者在翻難關之前扣上路線428天花板上的bolt, 從左邊翻出天花板難關之後接上路線428, 或是爬路線428左邊的內角. [route 427] "plausible", on the p.215 topo this route joins route 426 after the dihedral roof crux. Because of bolt positions, a sport climbing leader, in addition to a less responsive belayer, WILL hit the ledge below (and typically results in serious ankle injury) if (s)he falls just before clipping above the crux. It is recommended for sport leaders with less commitment to clip the bolt just above the roof on route 428, and to climb out the roof from the left, and then join route 428 or climb the dihedral left to route 428.