龍洞黃金谷New Project!

[yideliu]

在龍洞黃金谷「名不虛傳」(5.13b)左側之大外傾面將有可能開發出另一條難度更高的路線!

黃金谷這面高度將近二十米的大岩角，是由左側約25度的外傾面及右側幾近垂直的斜板面所組成。「名不虛傳」當初在打路線時，bolts是沿著右側之斜板面往上打，路線於最後四米處轉向左側之外傾面，並於最後動態抓到斜板面上之小點後，翻上平台後完攀。

然而，是否能從底部就沿著左側之外傾面直上，而完全不使用岩角上之點與右側之斜板面呢? 抑或不翻上右側的小平台，而繼續沿著25度的外傾向上爬至岩壁頂端呢? 這無疑將是一條結合爆發力與耐力的新路線。

在以top-rope試攀後，發現這條路線共有三個難度在V4-V5之間的難關，而且一旦離開了外傾面與左側斜板的夾角後就得連續做出15個抱石動作，方能抓到兩個不錯之休息點，即與名不虛傳完攀小平台之平行處。之後，再偏左爬上岩壁左側之最高點完攀。

整條路線共有三個難關，難度與「誰與爭鋒」(5.13b)的三個難關相近，但由於難關連續，且是在25度的大外傾面上，所以只有四個稍微不錯的點可停下來掛快扣。至於小平台上方的最後五米，由於沒有top anchor，因此仍無法試攀及推測難度。但若整條路線不偏向岩角與右側斜板面，難度應有5.13b-c。

[chao]

照片提供---劉以德


照片說明: 紅線(名不虛傳),藍線(New Project)
[addsig]

[imported_Anonymous]

據宏祥說,YumYum過去曾經試攀此路線,認為難度至少有5.13c!


[img]images/forum/smilies/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_eek.gif[/img]

[chao]

照片&文字提供---劉以德

這是一張更詳細的說明圖，圖中之黃點為理想的bolts位置，第一顆與”名不虛傳”共用，第二及第三顆由於與左側斜板太接近腳很容易踏到，且over面完全沒點，所以是沿著夾角爬。

之後，標紫線的8米是路線最困難的地方，第4-7等四顆bolts處有四個可停下來的點。第6顆即在L型edge旁，但接下來不偏向右側的小爛點，而是倒扣另一個爛點，向上dyno。

整條路線最難的地方是在第4-5顆bolts間，與”名不虛傳”的第一個over的難度差不多，但得做出一個很ㄍ一ㄣ的動作。
最後多出的5米，遠遠看應該不會太難，但由於over依然延續，所以還蠻刺激的，我大約試攀到了第8顆bolt的位置就不敢再上了。

這條路線由於over連續，感覺起來比”終極岩”或”毒刺林”的路線還漂亮。

[addsig]

[imported_Anonymous]

今天下午與俊鳴去試攀時,因踩斷一個腳點而多出了一個更大的手點,使得原本V5的難關不復存在,路線的難度也因此驟減,約只剩下5.13a左右!

以德 筆

[kevin]

照片&文字提供---劉以德


龍洞黃金谷project news

2003年06月29日下午,二齒以純熟的技術,花了近3個小時,終於把這條project的bolts打完(10
bolts + 1 Top Anchor)!
超過30度的大角度及些許\不穩的岩質,使得施工過程十分辛苦,由於將一些鬆動的岩石敲除,因此路線的難度應仍維持在5.13b/c.

為了保持路線的完整性,此條project的下半部與\"名不虛傳\"共用4顆bolts,之後即轉向左側的over面直上,並於翻上最上端的\"V\"字型平台後完攀.這條project的單步難關雖然都較其他5.13b路線容易些,但由於角度大且持續,因此需要更佳的耐力方能完攀.

在經過俊明,二齒,子凱等人的試攀後,皆認為此路線之難度應超過5.13b,甚至可能達到5.13c!

[addsig]

[Ta-Chi]

Congratulations!!

This route is the one I told TT last summer that should have the potential of hard 5.13 or even 5.14, and which should be one among the fews of the pretiest hard routes at Longdome.

When I bolted the anchors above this wall several years ago, I noticed its potential. But I decided not to do it becuase it was evidently beyond my ability even to try its first few steps. I even had in my mind to name it \"Taipei Yellow Rose\" (due to its beautifully dark yellowish rock and because of the song \"Taipei Red Rose\" of Luo da-you, which was popular back then) if I could do it -- of course, this was my wishful thinking and now is your previlige. Again, my whole-heartedly congratulations to all of you for accomplishing this beatiful project.

There are quite a few other potential routes having the similar quality as this one at Longdome. Hope you guys can locate them (I won\'t tell you guys where they are because I still hold the imposible dream that one day I probably could climb them myself [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_wink.gif[/img] )

[chao]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
There are quite a few other potential routes having the similar quality as this one at Longdome.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

to Ta-Chi:

Is that wall you mean?Here probably has the first 5.14 at LongDung![img]images/forum/smilies/[/img]

[addsig]

[twoteeth]

這條路線實際的傾角大約40度,由於地型的關係看起好像沒有外傾那麼大,在固定點上垂繩下去才可看出角度之大,估計難度約在5.13C左右,是一條不錯的路現,不知我們的路線殺手那時候要把它KO掉

[imported_Anonymous]

二齒,明天要不要一起去啊? 我們11點從民權國中出發,不過現在有五個人要去,車子可能會擠一些!

上面兩張照片的路線應該比黃金谷的over更大(位於後門與黃金谷之間),只可惜與後側的斜板太靠近,墜落時可能會撞到,除非bolts打的很密集!

[A-fwu]

我覺的要結束在左邊的face就更好
因為top achor現在會磨繩的很厲害
結束在face上也許\可增加難度

阿福

[Ta-Chi]

Kevin:

This is not one of \"them,\" although I am not 100% sure where this route you show me is (I guess this route is located right in where \"Golden Valley\" connects to the \"Back Door\") If I am right, this route is a little short, and, as someone\'s comments already have it - too narrow - to become a \"classic.\" The majority of 5.13s and potential 5.14s - let me give you a hint - are located in places where you need to aid-climb in order to set a top-rope to try it!

TT:

What is \"KO?\"

A-Fwu:

I think A-Fwu is right: keep climbing up the steep face past the big V-gove might make this route harder, more strenuous, and might as well make it on the verge of 5.14 (I can only imagine this because I cannot even do 5.11 now . . .)

As to the rope-draging problem, one solution is to add one bolt right to the anchor on the right edge of the V-gove, making it a \"directional third anchor,\" such that when TR, at least one rope (TR has \"two ropes\") will go to right first from the anchor and so pass the lower edge of the V-grove and make it straight-down. But this is may be overconcerned. For a route like this steep, TR or redpoint should clip almost all bolts to avoid swing too far to get back to rock once taking a fall. If full-clipped, the damage on rope due to draging becomes minimal and sometimes can even be ignored. [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img]

[chao]

估算此project面的角度:

左邊的紅線:二齒在打路線時,垂下來的繩子.
右邊的紅線:岩角.


因為我沒有量角器.所以用最傳統的方法算.先畫出一個直角三角形,再去查三角函數表,得知岩壁的角度大約是外傾33度.

但以德覺得爬起來比他家岩場的33度還小一些.所以實際角度大約介於30-33度之間.


上面貼的另一張照片(黃金谷和後門間),原本以德已畫出角度示意圖,但感覺上實際的角度應該會更大,所以暫時先不去計算,等到實際去那爬了之後再測量.




-------

When I have a little time, I climb;
and if any is left, I eat and sleep.

「攀岩星球」上只住著兩種人，一種是在攀岩的人；
另一種是爬累了正在休息的人。


<font size=1>[ 這篇文章修改由: chao 在 2003-07-01 14:50 ]</font>

[imported_Anonymous]

上週日未將Top Anchor打在左側最高的face面上，主要是因為最上端有一顆浮動的巨石，擔心它整顆會砸下來! 不過另一個方法就是翻上V字型平台、抓到左側最高點後，不掛top anchor直接往下跳，如此不僅不會磨繩，級數也可能會更高喔!!
大濟，你說的秘密岩壁是”大禮堂”的一面白色岩壁嗎? 其實龍洞的處女地已經所剩不多了，原本”第一洞”應該還可以開出更多困難路線，但二齒表示在岩質不佳的情況下只有放棄。而子凱說的那面大over是位於黃金谷及後門間，接近guidebook中所指的”浪之外”，只可惜墜落時會撞到後方的斜板岩。
(以德)

[Ta-Chi]

Yi-de & My Other Dear Friends:

1) You are right. My \"secret places\" are mostly at the Auditorium, which are on the guidebook, p. 148-151. My favorite is the big off-width crack on p. 148 which may have the potential to become one of the hardest trad routes at Longdome (5.12?). Its various variations also have potentials to become some other 5.13s sporty. Other \"likely\" routes on p. 149 and 150 entails aid-climbing to see if the quality of rock deserves to develop and, if it does, to set top anchors.

2) True, there are not too many \"tabula rasa\" remaining at Longdome. The Grand Audiotorium perhaps is the only one. But imaginations would help here -- there are lots of potential variations possible on many established routes that would yield quality, hard \"classics.\" [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_smile.gif[/img]

3) Before I bow out -- I have to, for I have had a busy summer, an intense partime job to do in addition to my study in order to \"eke out\" my family\'s livelihood. Besides, I do not think talking about 5.13 to be meaningful to me -- I am now just an old, well-rusted 5.9 climber trying to struggle to resume 5.11. But let me summarize what I think about of all the recent debates, if you guys allow me. Let me use the single issue of naming to express my otherwise multi-forked thoughts:

To name and to re-name are two different thing, each reflecting different ethics and culture. In any event, please try to think hard and smart, and to think freely whenever you are engaging in either behavior.

I have nothing to say about the behavior of renaming -- it\'s out of my comprehension. As to naming, I do have some comments: the names of Taiwan\'s routes have somehow been a little too \"masculine,\" a liitle too \"aggressive,\" and a liitle too \"martial-art like.\"

If naming represents the culture of Taiwan\'s climbing community, this means that we are becoming preoccupied by a relatively narrow mindset which in my opinion are too much of \"muscularity\" and \"competition\", and too much focusing on the issue of \"legitimacy\" (Is this having something to do with current Taiwan\'s social/political ethos?).

I would assume that one important quality of being a top climber as you are is the ability to imagine -- so, as you are going to name a route, try to imagine something else other than the climbing itself. Why? Becuase able to climb a route is not an end itself -- it is both an end and means, or an end that serves as a means to other ends. Thinking climbing ONLY would not reflect such a logic; instead, thinking BOTH climbing and other things -- the surrounding, the nature, the people, the song you have llistened to the night before, the stories that pup out in you mind while you are confronting a crux, the lists can go on and on -- would. To name a route in this way, the \"culture\" of yours opens up and the name followed would be more likely to truly reflect \"you\" and the the \"meaning\" of that route.

So, why not try something \"softer,\" \"more social,\" and \"cheerful,\" sometime even \"playful\" -- something \"unconventional?\" Years later, the name you give would not only become a mark of 5.13 or so, but would also remind people the \"life\" you have \"shared\" with them when that route was created.

And years later, you would smile when in retrospect, you are remined by that route\'s name that after all, climbing is just part of your life -- a devoted part but nothing more. You will have other goals to fulfill, and other achievements of yours will lead your life. That name, that \"more natural, softer, cheerful, and playful\" name will only remind you that you have had such a wonderful life -- a 5.13 or 5.14 life but with something more.

So long, my friends! Climb well, enjoyably, and safely. Hope to see some of you next year here in the US. [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[imported_Anonymous]

大濟
謝謝你的建議與發人深省的見解!
關於路線的命名，我原本就十分同意那只是個”溝通”上的代名詞而已，由誰命名、命名為何其實都不是重點。不過，這也同時反應出台灣攀岩界一些存在已久的問題! 攀岩無論要朝競技或休閒運動發展，都需要建立起一套常規，無論在安全問題或倫理規範上，如此台灣的攀岩運動才能得以永續發展。攀岩可以玩得很休閒、也可以爬得很專業、很嚴肅。因為一個運動本來就像是座金字塔，金字塔的頂端象徵著運動的職業化、競技化，底部則是運動的普及化、休閒化。
在路線的開發上，有人認為應該把bolt拿去打一些簡單路線，有些人則主張盡量開發一些困難路線，這兩者皆是將台灣攀岩這座金字塔建構得更完善的必要途徑。以我個人而言，我常以較為嚴肅的態度面對攀岩這項運動，也認為台灣的攀岩(或其他運動)目前之發展瓶頸，正是由於缺乏完善的運動體制，一套透明化、民主化的機制。
近來將一些議題，如：路線命名、政府經費補助、公開岩場換點…，放在網站上大家公開討論，其實就是一種民主與進步的表現。或許\有爭議、有誤解、有分歧，但經由這樣的討論也才能建立起真正的共識與更和諧的攀岩環境，你說是嗎?

(以德)

[Ta-Chi]

Yide,

I entirely agree with your points. But, let me present two somewhat long comments:

1) When making rules, be prepared to confront with the fact that rules cannot solve each and every problems. Let me put here just one example which may seem a little too \"big\" but still relevant: the difficulties of democarcy.

To be legitimate, a democracy (as you have implied in your response that the rule-making process of climbing should be democratic) must ensure that the people are self-governing and that the higher rules and law guaranteeing democracy are protected from popular abuses. Conventionally, two approaches are available for articulating the rules of a democratic polity so defined. However, they both have certain defects:

On the one hand, we have the so-called \"constitutionalism,\" which, however, tends to become too preoccupied with the most fundamental issue of basic rights and principles of justice, at the expense of the MORAL DISAGREEMENTS that are and should remain at the center of ongoing debate. Constitutionalists is often said to detach themselves from the passions of everyday life while tracing popular values to a full specification of the rights and duties of citizens who are said to regard each other as free and equal beings. By overtly relying on constitutionalism, it is thus argued, democracy may run into what may be called \"substantive objection,\" which means that controversial MORAL INDETERMINANCIES are revealed in the meaning of these rights when being put to use. In the meantime, due to the fact that the constitutionalism defines in advance what can count as legitimate reasons, the citizens are being said to be deprived of the opportunity and the responsibility to grapple with the most significant moral questions and therefore lose a vital part of the training in responsibility and self-control that citizenship should bring forth.

On the other hand, we have the so-called \"proceduralism,\" the aim of which is to set the terms of full and fair participation by all citizens in democratic decision-making. But proceduralism is internally problematic: overtly relying on procedural rule is to err and discount the very possibility of serious democracies on moral controversies. For, once the rules are agreed to, policies can easily become the realm of bargaining over preferences and interests, and the result of which is often that broader coalitions of interests tend to win over narrower ones. That is to say, since ordinary people know perfectly well that it is not possible to altogether separate debates over procedures from debates over outcomes, process CANNOT remain neutral. Therefore, every choice of participatory procedure can be challenged, and must accordingly be defended, in the name of a principle. Whether justifications ascend or not, this process takes proceduralism back to just where it should be in the first place: an investigation of principles.

In short, democarcy is not an all-encompassing solution to problems. Nor are rules. They are by themselves problems needed to solve eternally. Rule-making is an art, not just a mechanic process; nor is it a solution to all the potential problems which may confront Taiwan\'s climbing community present and in the near future. Now, let us talk about the so-called \"international convention\" of naming:

2) First of all, the so-called \"international convention\" is questionable -- Is it genuine \"international,\" that is, a common rule observed by ALL climbing communities internationally, or, is it simply what we have interpreted from \"international\" magazines? To my understanding, the so-called \"international convention\" is not the former, for difefrent localities have different, albeit subtle, rules of naming, which serves those localities well becuase these rules rise historically, not being imposed upon, despite they may sometime run counter to the principles of what we have understood.

Secondly, sport climbing has been influenced greatly by commercial needs. Such influences may serve well to the princple of fairness -- indeed, it needs to becuase competition, whatever its form may be, is based on fairness, but it may not serve to a particular locality to the principles of adequacy as well as ethical harmony, the import of the latter you have already pointed out. Moreover, as I have argued else where, the scope and spirits of traditional cimbing is different than that of sport climbing. Thus, whether the \"rules\" that we are talking about are based on the commercialized standards, or based on the local balance between traditional and sport climbing, or based on Taiwan\'s particular circumstances, and what would be the likely consequences once the rules are made and implemented, needs to be thought over carefully.

So, third and finally, let us go back to the problem of democracy. Democracy is problematic, but there is one invaluable element inherent in a democractic process and democractic rule implementation: it is \"involvement,\" and alone with that, \"deliberation.\" In my opinion, we can afford not to have democracy but we cannot afford to lose \"involvement\" and \"deliberation.\" The results of the latter are qualities of \"tolerance\" and \"understanding,\" as your response has alluded to. Discussion yields these two qualities, so does participation. Taiwan needs both. Taiwan does not need \"iron cage\" -- which is so-called \"rationality\" in its strict sense as I have seen what the discussion of naming and changing holds are all about.

Again, I agree with you. This long comment serves only to clarify what I see of your response that can be subtle but important parts. [img]images/forum/smilies/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[A-fwu]

very very good opinion from Ta-Chi....

Climbing is just part of our life not entirely. and there are more things to be fulfill. I have found this after I was 30. From Climbing I have known many people, and they became my best friends. I think this is the most vaulable thing in my life, and even when I can not climb anymore I will still be able to keep these friends and memories.

A-fwu

[chao]

恭喜以德完攀新project囉~

不愧\是\"路線殺手\" [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img]


「黃金傳奇」 (5.13b/c)相關資訊：http://www.rockclimbing.idv.tw/viewt...c=472&forum=15


-------

When I have a little time, I climb;
and if any is left, I eat and sleep.

「攀岩星球」上只住著兩種人，一種是在攀岩的人；
另一種是爬累了正在休息的人。


<font size=1>[ 這篇文章修改由: chao 在 2003-07-07 01:07 ]</font>

[twoteeth]

KO,拳擊術語,knockout
目前正在開發黃金谷,真正的谷那一範圍的sport路線,應該還有7,8條好玩的路線未開發