康明哲的攀岩之旅 系列一(講座)

[IDEA探索教育發展機構]

康明哲的攀岩之旅 系列一



時間：2005年1月17號PM:20:00
地點：臺北市北投區運動中心2樓「idea探索教育攀岩館」
電話：2828-7660
地址：臺北市北投區石牌路一段39巷100號2樓
【內容】
攀登過程幻燈片播放、介紹阿爾卑斯式攀登、路線介紹及攀岩旅行生活點滴分享。
主要內容為其所攀登之名列北美五十條經典路線中的六條路線，其名如下......

- Direct Exum Ridge, Grand Teton
- Direct South Buttress, Mount Moran
- Northeast Face, Pingora
- East Ridge, Wolf's Head
- South Face, Petit Grepon
- The Diamond, Longs Peak(未成)
(Fifty Classic Climbs of North America ,作者 Steve Ropper、Allen Steck ,1979)

備註：當日晚上綜合攀登時間免費開放至七點半（不含現場體驗）。
相關資料可先參考康明哲的個人網站
http://www.climber.idv.tw/~mckang/
【交通】
開車：沿承德路往北投方向過石牌路後至下一路口實踐街右轉，遇小歇左轉39巷即達。
搭車：坐捷運至石牌站下車，沿捷運往北走，至第一紅燈左轉致遠二街，遇三陽機車右轉單行道再通過石牌公園即達。





<font size=1>[ 這篇文章修改由: IDEA探索教育發展機構 在 2005-01-09 13:14 ]</font>

[PETZL]

請問要事先報名嗎?

[IDEA探索教育發展機構]

不用，直接來參加即可
[img]images/forum/smilies/icon_smile.gif[/img]

因為不太會貼圖，多弄了一篇空白的
麻煩站長將第二篇(空白)刪掉，謝謝。

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2005-01-10 10:19, PETZL wrote:
請問要事先報名嗎?
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

[風之谷]

不好意思，就讓路人甲(我)替這場演講作一個小小的註解。
這場演講的主題是阿爾卑斯式攀登。這種攀登形式是結合了登山與攀岩等面向的技術性活動。攀登時需考量高山氣候多變的不穩定性、在偌大的岩壁上判斷路線的精準度以及克服垂降路線不明確的風險。
演講中介紹的路線位於北美的落磯山群裡，湖泊相擁的冰河谷地中，景緻遼闊壯麗。
來參加這場講座，可以對阿爾卑斯式攀登多一些瞭解，也能欣賞落磯山群遼闊無際的面貌。

[PETZL]

這跟臺灣流行的運動攀登型態有很大的不同.期待這次的講座~^^

[clk]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE> 不好意思，就讓路人甲(我)替這場演講作一個小小的註解。
這場演講的主題是阿爾卑斯式攀登。這種攀登形式是結合了登山與攀岩等面向的技術性活動。攀登時需考量高山氣候多變的不穩定性、在偌大的岩壁上判斷路線的精準度以及克服垂降路線不明確的風險。
演講中介紹的路線位於北美的落磯山群裡，湖泊相擁的冰河谷地中，景緻遼闊壯麗。
來參加這場講座，可以對阿爾卑斯式攀登多一些瞭解，也能欣賞落磯山群遼闊無際的面貌。
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Too bad that I can’t go to meet Mr. Kang. I am impressed by his effort. I have attempted a few routes of North America 50 classic myself. Most of them are in cold and icy condition such as Devil’s Thumb in Alaska, Bugaboo and Mt Slessee in Canada and winter attempt of the Nose of El Capitan.
I think, the climbing style of Mr. Kang done on those routes is actually called big wall rock climbing, not alpine climbing (unless they are climbed in winter in which the climbers may require crampons and ice axes at some point on route).

Finally, I like to invite Mr. Kang to my area Oregon and Washington state to climb with me sometimes. Devil’s Thumb in Alaska seems a good project to do.

clk
kuoc@ohsu.edu

[ed512]

的確....
明哲這次攀岩的方式應該是比較接近""大牆攀登""(big-wall-climbing)
包含人工攀登,自由攀登,繩隊攀登....等

阿爾卑斯式攀登應該是包含冰攀的部分(雪地冰璧用具的使用)
跟臺灣流行的運動攀登型態是有不同
但也沒阿爾卑斯式攀登那樣複雜

還有......
如果你有一個像明哲這樣猛的LEADER
你也可以當""慢跑女郎""喔

[img]images/forum/smilies/[/img] [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img] [addsig]

[大濟]

能不能解釋一下為什麼「阿爾卑式」攀登一定要有冰、雪，而且好像一定要穿冰雪裝備？

我的了解：所謂阿爾卑式攀登是相對於「遠征式」、或叫「siege」式攀登而言，起緣於 1930 年代的歐洲（其實是意大利）。兩者基本的分別是：後者（遠征或siege式），攀登過程中設立諸多營站（基地營、第一營、攻頂營 . . .），攀登者在這些營站往返補給、等機會、休習等等，然後才攻頂。前者（阿爾卑式）不同，不設營站，只露宿（bivy），起來拔營繼續上攀，不補給，換言之，阿爾卑式是純「自助式」的攀登方式，一起攀就等於攻頂，除非撤退。

所以相較之下，阿爾卑式攀登較快，但也較富冒險性，一起攀就一路攀向未知，體力、精神力要求也較 siege 式攀登要高，風險也較大。有無冰雪只是次要（secondary）條件。大牆攀登則是二者皆有人用。譬如：當初 Nose 是用 siege 方式首攀的。Salathe Wall 則是用阿爾卑式首攀。

以這個定義來看，這次明哲、孟麗都是用阿爾卑式完成路線的。

[大濟]

補充前文：

siege 式的攀登是架設固定繩（fixed rope）。固定繩有助於攀登者上下往返於營地之間。

阿爾卑式則完全不架設固定繩。所以固定繩的有無往往是用來判定這二個不同攀登方式的重要憑介。

[clk]

Sorry I brought it up.
Alpine climbing was originated in the Alps. “Alpine” means alpine climate. Alpine zone usually is above timberline and has ice year around even in summer months. Glaciation is also a special feature of alpine climate. It is what happens in the Alps. However, in the other part of the world, like in the US, a lot of big walls are not in alpine climate any more (in the ice age, they were). For example the big walls in Utah is in desert climate. It is hard to say that climbing Zion big wall is an “alpine climbing”. Even Yosemite winter climbing is not truly alpine climbing; more specifically it is a winter big wall climbing.
Expedition climbings are usually in high altitude. These areas are usually in alpine zones, therefore it has alpine climbing style (refer to the climbing style of the Alps) or siege style. For example, when the first Japanese expedition climbed the Eiger North Face, it was done in siege style not alpine style.
So technically, what Mr. Kang have done are big wall climbings, which is not any easier than alpine climbing. He is a strong leader. I am impressed. I would like to meet him some day.

clk
kuoc@ohsu.edu

[ed512]

這些攀爬方式在台灣的爬岩者可能可以分清楚的可能很少
包括我自己.... [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img] [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img]
經過討論可以讓大家更了解吧

不過大牆攀登通常為了屈就營地和隔天的速度
通常都會架接下來幾個pitch的固定繩
不知道這邊的固定繩符不符合大濟所說的定義

我之所以會說大牆攀登
是有專書介紹這種攀登模式和技巧
而且好像大家都稱之為大牆攀登
是比較專屬於攀岩的部分

阿爾卑式攀登法好像就比較算是混合式登山法了

不過我的資料來源有限
認知也不足

希望大家多多討論有個結論
[img]images/forum/smilies/[/img] [img]images/forum/smilies/[/img]

捨我其誰....
生命如果可以發那一點光熱
那就值得了

<font size=1>[ 這篇文章修改由: ed512 在 2005-01-12 16:37 ]</font>

<font size=1>[ 這篇文章修改由: ed512 在 2005-01-12 16:37 ]</font>

[clk]

A-Kuo is correct.
Big wall rock climbing had been developed into a special style of rock climbing originated from Yosemite. Special equipments are also developed for its need; such as haul bag, portaledge, bolt kit, and static rope haul line etc.
Pushing the big wall rock climbing to an even more extreme is called alpine big wall climbing, which can be seen in Bugaboo, Alaska, Greenland, Baffin Island, Patagonia and even Antarctica. Climbing alpine big walls, climbers need to have skill of every thing, free rock, ice, mixed, aid climbing, back country skiing and glacier travel, some time even sea ice travel in fjord (in Baffin island and Greenland). Some climbers can even lead 5.10 free climb with plastic over boots. Needless to say it is done in extreme cold condition. Interestingly, in this situation, no body cares what style anymore; aid or free, red point or on-sight, alpine or siege style, who care. Climbers care only “to live or to die”. If fix line can be done, do it, who care. When Greg Child was climbing the Gasherbrum (IV?) the last half pitch is a smooth granite wall to the summit, no crack, no feature at all. He had to hummer a bolt ladder in order to reach the summit ( it was near 8000m). Noted that those old climbers they also hate bolts.

clk

[大濟]

先不管阿不阿爾卑，明哲和孟麗的成就和這些定義無關。他們完成了臺灣攀岩界、三十餘年來的三大目標之一。他們的成就不能用一些吹毛求庛的定義給攪混了 ﹣﹣這三大目標是：１）爬上 5.13；２）知名大牆人工攀登；３）知名大牆自由攀登。臺灣的許多高手已完成了第一項。現在明哲和孟麗完成了第二項。而且是用比較困難的阿爾卑式。

我也鼓勵有心人多去參加這場發表會。看看大牆是什麼個樣子，聽聽這一對在岩壁上相依為命的心靈感受，感覺一下他們幾個月來在異國它鄉、大山大水間尋尋覓覓、面對挑戰的種種。身為攀岩者，明哲和孟麗是臺灣少數不活在「符號」裡的人。我欽佩他們。

寫以下這些「定義」的雜碎東西，不是想替他們辯什麼。他們根本不在乎別人要怎麼下定義。以下這些「定義」的東西是寫給我們這些還在諸多符號裡掙扎的人參考用的。

我前文已簡略了說明「阿爾卑式攀登」的定義 ﹣﹣定義往往只是簡單的觀念。下定義不等同「加」條件。滿足定義後，要加什麼條件以造成「Alpine Big Wall」、「Remote Alpine Climbing」、「Winter Alpine Accent」等等，是別的話題。我不認為加了條件後的「衍生定義」可以用來混淆阿爾卑式攀登的原始精神和定義。

大英百科全書中沒有「Alpine Climbing」的定義。但不時的談到「Alpine Style of Mountaineering」。我想這兩名辭的精神是一樣的。例如：在談到喜瑪拉雅時：

「. . . Top mountaineers, disenchanted with the ponderous and predictable nature of these "siege" climbs, began in the 1970s to bring a more traditional “Alpine” style of climbing to the world's highest peaks . . . [in] this approach, a small party of perhaps three or four climbers goes up and down the mountain as quickly as possible, carrying all needed gear and provisions. This lightweight approach precludes fixing miles of safety ropes and carrying heavy supplemental oxygen. Speed is of the essence . . .」

（網路連結：http://www.search.eb.com/eb/articletocId=9052253&hook=790055#790055.hook）

又，談到梅思納時：「Messner became one of the earliest and strongest proponents of what came to be called the “Alpine” style of mountaineering, which advocates the use of minimal amounts of lightweight equipment and little or no outside support . . .」

（網路連結：http://www.search.eb.com/eb/articletocId=230908&hook=790001#790001.hook ）

可能可以找到別的比較具權威性的網站。總之，如果只談阿爾卑式攀登，它的定義和精神就在這簡單的幾句話裡了。

[大濟]

最後，我想以 Camp 4 一書中描述攀爬 Nose 有如 “living inside a cur diamond” 作為預祝明哲、孟麗發表會成功的吉祥賀辭。他們是臺灣第一對爬到那裡的人。原文如下：

“. . . The upper third of the Nose is one of the most soul-satisfying places in Yosemite. Planes of marble-smooth granite shoot upward toward infinity. The various dihedral walls, dead verticle at this stage, converge in broad, angular facets, and climing through this magical place is like living inside a cut diamond." （Steve Roper, 1994，Camp 4，p. 78）

也預祝去參加這場發表會的同好能一齊分享他們爬到這 magical place，inside a cut diamond 的喜悅和啟示。

[clk]

I hope I don’t offend anyone.
I brought it up for the communication in climber community.

If I climb some big walls in the dry area in Utah, Arizona or Colorado, and I tell the climbing community that I “alpine climb” the Zion big wall, they will be confused and not understand what I am talking about.

Myself does not care about style or rating. I care more on “to live or die”.
I have attempted a few alpine big wall routes myself but eventually have to turn around in order to survive. As I always say that I admire Mr. Kang’s effort and I hope to do some project with him in future.

Mr. Da-Chi, you have a good heart to stimulate up the climbing standard of Taiwan. Good for you and keep-on.


clk